Winsor Davis & LOTSW

M

Mr Booze

Member
Hi everyone

I was wondering if any of you could solve an LOTSW argument for me.

My friend claims that after the departure of Brian (Foggy) Wilde from the show for the second time both the BBC and the LOTSW writers were keen to continue with the military flavour of the third man and approached veteran actor Windsor Davis best known for his role of Battery Sergeant Major Williams in It Ain’t Half Hot Mum with the part of “Benjamin Byrchall” who was to be wait for it…. a former Sergeant Major!
They even had a catchphrase for him which would have been “That’s Byrchall spelt with a Y!” Which would have been delivered in Davis’s famous Welsh drawl with Clegg and Compo mimicking him for comic effect.

According to the story Davis whilst interested in the part objected to the character being too close to the one he played in It Ain’t Half Hot Mum and certain cast members also branded the idea as “lazy writing” so negotiations came to nothing and in the end Frank Thornton was approached with the character of Truly Truelove.

Is there any truth in this story does anyone know?
To be honest I always thought and no disrespect to Frank Thornton here that Truly was the weakest of the third men and that not much thought had been given to his character. Could this be the reason why?
 
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I'd be interested in where this story comes from. Most accounts of Brian Wildes second departure, including the version in Alan Bells book, say that Wilde was thought originally to be only temporarily absent for health reasons. Thornton was just supposed to be a short term fill in. Bell does not say anything about other actors considered in this case, though he does earlier in his book when talking about Wildes first departure.
 
I have to say that's a new one on me. As said Brian was only supposed to be off temporally and everything I've read hasn't mentioned anyone else being considered to fill his boots.
 
Very interesting post.

I wonder if perhaps Windsor Davies was considered for the part after Wilde's FIRST departure, rather than his second?

This may account for a few factors - in 1985 Windsor Davies had only been out of It Ain't Half Hot Mum for four years. In 1997 he wasn't appearing in much TV, and may have welcomed the chance. Also, by 1997, some may say the writing was already 'lazy'.
 
Hi and thank you for the replies so far.

I've got to admit that it is one of those stories that is a friend of friend who knows someone who used to drink in the same pub as someone who used to work for the BBC type of stories, however what intrigues me is the amount of detail in it to just dismiss it as a figment of someone's imagination as both the catchphrase is something that you could imagine being written with Windsor Davis in mind and the proposed characters name being very LOTSWesque.
Also Windsor Davis who is very much under rated as an actor in my opinion would have been about the right age to easily slip into the role of a military style third man had he been offered and accepted it at the time.

Apparently the BBC were desperate to recapture what it classed as the "golden era" of LOTSW (that much we know is true) and it is claimed they felt Windsor Davis could bring that added ingredient that some argue was still missing despite Brian Wildes return to the show.
 
One scenario where this might fit is if Davies was approached after it became clear that Wilde would not be coming back. In other words, it would have been a situation where Truly would have only been a one series third man. If that was the case, I could see Bell not wanting to discuss it in his book out of respect for Frank Thorton, who was still alive when the book was published.

On the other hand, both Bell and Andrew Vine in his book on the series strongly imply that the BBC expected the show to only last as long as Bill Owen was on it. As he was already in his 80s by 1997, it seems unlikely they would have been all that interested in bringing in yet another new third man for a show seemingly so near its end.
 
Is your friend certain this would have taken place after Brian Wilde's SECOND departure?

Windsor Davies is a great actor - though he is at his funniest when he's shouting and bawling, or spluttering in amazement over something.

He was particularly good in Carry On Behind, where he was basically taking over from an un-available Sid James.

He's also good playing a Scottish sergeant major in Adolf Hitler - My Part in His Downfall, where he falls from a height into a load of thistles whilst wearing nothing under his kilt.
 
Like I say unfortunately this is one of those stories that is a friend of friend who knows someone who used to drink in the same pub as someone who used to work for the BBC type of stories but the person who told me this did mention Frank Thornton so the time frame would indicate Brian Wildes SECOND departure from the show however who knows if the person who related the story to my friend has related the correct version of the story to him.

I'll agree with your theory Sarkus regarding Bell having too much respect for Frank Thornton and he was also probably grateful to Frank Thornton for stepping in at such short notice as well. In the end if the story is true and nothing came of approaching Windsor Davis to join the cast it would be nothing more than idle gossip to include it in any offical history of the show however I disagree that the BBC accepted that the show would only last as long as Bill Owen was available despite Bell and Vines claims because the BBC allowed the show to limp on post Bill Owens death as a shadow of it's former self before realising the magic had gone and it was time to call it a day.

It is also worth noting that towards the end of LOTSW part of the myth was that veteran actors and actresses were queuing up to appear on the show. If the story of Windsor Davis turning a part and a major one at that down and also parts of the cast thought that his proposed character would be "lazy writing" then it's understandable that Alan Bell would not want to include this story in his book as it makes everyone concerned look bad.
 
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Though this has never been mentioned in any of the books published over the years, it could always be a cause of the subject was mentioned at some stage by someone in the business and it has gone from department to department and taken as read down the line
 
This is an interesting story.

Like another poster said, I have a little difficulty in believing that Windsor Davies wouldn`t have been happy to have signed up though. Some of the other roles he took on at the time were not exactly illustrious after all.

I think it would be fascinating to know the truth about the casting for the last several years though. I would imagine that they tried to convince dozens and dozens of experienced actors to appear and we only know about very few of them.

Btw, has anyone ever tried to contact Alan Bell to see whether he would be interviewed for this site? That could be very interesting.
 
I think if it was true it would have been mentioned at some point in a book or two, Fulton Mackay's name was mentioned freely even if it was just to frighten Brian Wilde.
 
Windsor Davies & LOTSW

I heard that he met Alan Bell on a wintry day in the countryside at New Mill[ where Pete posted the photos of] . Bell wanted to keep his potential appearance top secret . Bell's words to Windsor were " IF I give you the part , don't tell it to the breeze, or she will tell the birds and bees, and everyone will know. " . Unfortunately Windsor could not keep quiet so he was summoned again to New Mill to be told he would not be getting the part . Bell's words were " You didn't get the part , I did warn you but because you told the blabbering trees , yes you told them once before, it's no secret any more " . He went on to say " After our first chat last winter why tell them all the old things, they were buried under the snow, sorry you're nothing but a whispering grass , why tell the trees because the trees didn't need to know" . The rest is history ! :whisper:
 
I think it would have worked quite well with Windsor Davies as a sergeant major type in LOTSW, even though it would have altered the show considerably. Would certainly have provided Compo and Clegg with plenty of amusement.

Though I think by 2008 his TV work had subsided a great deal, he may have been a better choice than Russ Abbot, though I think both are great actors as well as funny men.
 
Thanks again for your replies and thoughts on this story.

I personally think Windsor Davis would have been an excellent addition to the cast and it's a shame the BBC couldn't have secured his services if the story is true.
However I can also understand Davis's reluctance to be "typecast" even if the TV work wasn't exactly rolling in by that point in his career as most actors/actresses seem to inwardly despise a popular TV or film character once it has made them a household name due to them losing their own identity when meeting the public.

Sadly I think the only people who know the real answer to this story is Windsor Davis, Alan Bell, some BBC execs and certain privy members of the LOTSW cast.
I don't know if you guys and gals have annual conventions like fans of other TV shows do where those who were closely involved in the making of a particular TV show are invited as a guest speaker but if you do maybe this would be a good one for the Q&As section?

BTW Captain Clutterbuck very droll :wink:
 
It's never struck me before that Windsor Davies would worry about being type-cast...

It would be great to interview Alan JW Bell, I think Terry has spoken to him on occasion.

As good as Alan JW Bell's book in LOTSW is, I feel after nearly 30 years there is still a LOT more to be told.

I think a series of books could be written on the series.
 
Glad he did not come into the show didn't like him very much he did an antique dealer comedy and was vey poor to much shouting would have ruined the show.
 
Windsor Davies & LOTSW

chris said:
Glad he did not come into the show didn't like him very much he did an antique dealer comedy and was vey poor to much shouting would have ruined the show.
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Chris show was Never the Twain Windsor co starred with fellow shouter Donald Sinden , I don't know how, but it ran for 11 seasons.???
 
@Chris there was more to Windsor Davis as an actor than just him shouting, his facial expressions and timing were spot on, I'll agree with you regarding his performance in "Never The Twain" being sub par but even the best actors and actresses are only as good as the scripts which in this case weren't very good even by ITV's standards.

Neither Russ Abbot or Brian (Mr Roper) Murphy brought anything new to the show in my opinion, the introduction of Bill Owens son Tom was embarrassing as I can only ever recall him playing a bit part as a drunk in the very early series of "The Bill" where he had less than a minutes appearance and you have to wonder if the script writers would even heard of him if it wasn't for him being Bills son.

Whilst Davis would probably not have been some fans first or even second choice as the third man he would have given us many comic moments I'm sure and we would probably have come to love "Benjamin Byrchall" as much as we loved his predecessors had Davis joined the show.
 
It might of ran for eleven seasons but I still didn't like it the storylines were very thin and ITV in those days had a load of rubbish on most nights and bad shows ran as there was nothing else to show.At least now they have a good spread of shows that are well produced and worth watching note that Gold don't show it at all and I think that says a great deal this my opinion and sorry if I offend .
 
chris said:
It might of ran for eleven seasons but I still didn't like it the storylines were very thin and ITV in those days had a load of rubbish on most nights and bad shows ran as there was nothing else to show.At least now they have a good spread of shows that are well produced and worth watching note that Gold don't show it at all and I think that says a great deal this my opinion and sorry if I offend .
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It has actually been repeated on ITV3 fairly recently I think (not that I`m saying that makes it a good show).

I always think that when people say, 'TV was better in the good old days' they forget that shows like this ran for a decade or so...
 
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