Three Men And A Mangle.

[Nicko12345]

I concur that 'Full Steam Behind' was a brilliant episode and very much a favourite of mine. Mind, we do have to recognise that in addition to the three guys there were the engines and trains which made a big addition to the cast - well, certainly to we railway buffs. But then, 'Last Post and Pigeon' was also a big favourite of mine and that had an enormous cast (including Gladys, the pigeon).

I just cannot feel any hangup whatsoever on size of cast. Shakespeare plays had massive casts and they only lasted around two hours. Most of them were pretty good.

Four times as long as the average ep of Summer Wine then. :wink:

I would say that the way to use an extended cast was shown on Porridge. They probably had 15-20 recurring characters on that show (as Summer Wine had during the later years) but they only used them when they would further the plot. Even a legendary character like Grouty, for example, only appeared in 3 episodes.

In the later years the show that I would most compare Summer Wine to (and I am probably alone in the world on this one) is The League of Gentlemen. While they are obviously completely different shows, they are both neither sitcoms nor sketch shows but something in between. The problem with this is that if a show doesn`t have an interesting story to keep people`s attention then it needs to be genuinely funny in order to entertain its audience. Now sometimes in the later years it was funny enough and there are good episodes but I don`t think it`s any coincidence that it was after introducing the bigger cast (several years before Hobbo arrived) that reviews and public perception of the show seemed to get worserer and worserer...

 

[cciaffone]

Last Post and Pigeon' was also a big favourite of mine

Seems like, besides the French hotel folks, the episode
began with the "ladies" at the Cafe, did it not?? Collecting
to send Compo over???

 

[Big Unc]

Well, here is my two penn`orth...

In the early series of the show the focus was on the plot and the characters had to fit around that. So if Nora, Ivy, Sid or Wally weren`t going to make a contribution then they weren`t included.

In the later series of the show the focus was on the characters and the plot had to fit around that.
All of those characters were going to be included even if they didn`t always add to the story.

Obviously there are some who feel the later series are as good if not better than the early years though which is fair enough.

Intrigued by this comment. I bump into all sorts of people as I walk round Keighley - and in any location you will meet the same people time and time again. We use the same routes at about the same time each day or each week (as creatures principally of habit) and thus only to be expected that I will see same people all the time. Clegg could hardly avoid Howard - they lived next door and as Clegg's was a common starting point Howard is almost expected to be in attendance!

I just feel that the latter barmpot quote sums up real life for me. I just cannot get hung up on plot in comedy and am inclined to leave that to drama. Part of the uniqueness of our show is that it is about redundant people just meandering around getting into mischief or reminiscing on days gone by. It is the script that matters not the plot. And to me, the size of cast is irrelevant if the script is good.

Maybe my attitude can be explained by the fact that I can be happy sitting in an Oxford theatre for an afternoon as I did not long ago just listening to two ancient cricket commentators, Blofeld and Baxter, just reminiscing on cricket incidents in their 'Memories of Test Match Special'. I just love the crack.

 

[Nicko12345]

Whoops - very clumsy wording on my part and profound apologies. Point I wanted to make was that American comedy practices should be no criterion for UK comedy. Two nations separated by a common language and all that.

Noted your list of shows and that with Bewitched and Happy Days you went way back. I thought The Simpsons was a cartoon and fundamentally cannot stand it. Have never seen Married with Children. But I have always enjoyed Frasier and particularly Cheers. (Maybe another of the same ilk is Taxi). Both are very good shows but I am struck by how different is the size of regular cast with Cheers being much the larger as was the case with Taxi. And in both the latter cases, most regular cast were in most episodes.

Actually a quick look at IMDB shows that only 8 cast members appeared in more than half of the Taxi episodes and in Cheers only 7 cast members. For the last 190 episodes or so of Summer Wine there would be a lot more than that.

Frasier is a good example as while the show only had 6 key characters, it did also have loads of other reappearing members like Bulldog, Noel, Gil, Kenny, Bebe, Lilith etc. Personally I feel the fact that these characters were used only sporadically was certainly a positive.

Oh and cartoon or not, anyone who can`t enjoy The Simpsons from Series 2-7 is missing out on one of the greatest TV shows of all time.

 

[Nicko12345]

I just feel that the latter barmpot quote sums up real life for me. I just cannot get hung up on plot in comedy and am inclined to leave that to drama. Part of the uniqueness of our show is that it is about redundant people just meandering around getting into mischief or reminiscing on days gone by. It is the script that matters not the plot. And to me, the size of cast is irrelevant if the script is good.

Maybe my attitude can be explained by the fact that I can be happy sitting in an Oxford theatre for an afternoon as I did not long ago just listening to two ancient cricket commentators, Blofeld and Baxter, just reminiscing on cricket incidents in their 'Memories of Test Match Special'. I just love the crack.

I can completely understand that and I can see the similarity in the reminiscing of Clegg, Truly, Billy etc.

But would the atmosphere have been spoiled somewhat if every couple of minutes their reminiscing had been interrupted by a couple talking about the golf club or a love triangle or a ladies coffee morning etc.? :wink:

 

[Nicko12345]

Seems like, besides the French hotel folks, the episode
began with the "ladies" at the Cafe, did it not?? Collecting
to send Compo over???

Yes, I think Big Unc was saying that enjoyed this episode with a big cast and he enjoyed early episodes like Full Steam Behind.

Personally I would say I like the A plot in Last Post and Pigeon but the B plot about the church is very weak. Not helped by the terrible dubbing job done on the actor playing the vicar`s lines.

 

[Big Unc]

I can completely understand that and I can see the similarity in the reminiscing of Clegg, Truly, Billy etc.

But would the atmosphere have been spoiled somewhat if every couple of minutes their reminiscing had been interrupted by a couple talking about the golf club or a love triangle or a ladies coffee morning etc.? :wink:

Au contraire, mon brave, they regularly interrupted themselves or each other as they were reminded of something and after a while, if they remembered they would wander back to the story they had been recounting ten minutes earlier. That is what I call the crack - totally undirected and loose conversation which wanders all over the place and maybe eventually gets back on track.

 

[Marianna]

Au contraire, mon brave, they regularly interrupted themselves or each other as they were reminded of something and after a while, if they remembered they would wander back to the story they had been recounting ten minutes earlier. That is what I call the crack - totally undirected and loose conversation which wanders all over the place and maybe eventually gets back on track.

That's part of the charm of the show.

Marianna

 

[codfanglers]

Wow, there has been a lot of different angles coming from this thread. And it all started with Three Men and a Mangle. So, like Big Unc's original statement in this thread, I figure I would jump in and just hope I don't mess everything up. I will also comment on thoughts that were a few pages back so I hope I don't disrupt the flow.


1. I have mixed feelings on Nicko's suggestion that not every single character of the later years be in every single show. When I first read this, I was like "but I don't want to go without seeing Smiler, Tom, Entwhistle, etc." However, ultimately I believe Nicko is correct on this one. There were so many extremely short scenes. Doing what American shows do, and probably Britsh shows, in only having the extra cast members in selected episodes. For example, in As Time Goes By I absolutely love seeing Penny & Steve and Rocky & Madge, but it probably woulnd't be so special they they all were in every episode. A comedy sitcom is probably different than Shakespeare this way!

2. Yes Nicko, a lot of American comedies last a long time, however, when you look at them they appear to have something in common- they start out strong but over the years, they loose their edge and decline in quality (Married with Children, Simpsons, the 'American' Office, etc.) Those shows continued because they still made money. However, this did not happen with Summer Wine.

3. OK, I am not as knowledgable on Summer Wine as some others here but, I don't link the quality of the episodes depended on if it had Seymour or Foggy. One of my recent observations in watching series 6-9 is that Seymour and Foggy were different, yet the same. Both had a pompous side and felt they were always right and superior to the other two. Both were socially awkward, but it was just one had military and money making dillusions and the other had education and invention dillusions. Reflecting on the era in between Blamire and Truly, I see that most episodes could fit either Seymour or Foggy.

Truly however, is a bit of a different character, and started out as a more straight forward, curmudgeon-type character. Perhaps over decades of Pompous and dillusional third men the writing and directing of the show suffered a bit, but things changed when a different type of character , Truly, was introduced.

4. Yes, I understand that Wilde and Owen were difficult at times, and I heard Sallis helped keep the peace, and that Abbot and Aldridge were very kind. However, all were great actors, and their real lifepersonalities and personal issues did not show on film.

 

[Nicko12345]

Wow, there has been a lot of different angles coming from this thread. And it all started with Three Men and a Mangle. So, like Big Unc's original statement in this thread, I figure I would jump in and just hope I don't mess everything up. I will also comment on thoughts that were a few pages back so I hope I don't disrupt the flow.


1. I have mixed feelings on Nicko's suggestion that not every single character of the later years be in every single show. When I first read this, I was like "but I don't want to go without seeing Smiler, Tom, Entwhistle, etc." However, ultimately I believe Nicko is correct on this one. There were so many extremely short scenes. Doing what American shows do, and probably Britsh shows, in only having the extra cast members in selected episodes. For example, in As Time Goes By I absolutely love seeing Penny & Steve and Rocky & Madge, but it probably woulnd't be so special they they all were in every episode. A comedy sitcom is probably different than Shakespeare this way!

2. Yes Nicko, a lot of American comedies last a long time, however, when you look at them they appear to have something in common- they start out strong but over the years, they loose their edge and decline in quality (Married with Children, Simpsons, the 'American' Office, etc.) Those shows continued because they still made money. However, this did not happen with Summer Wine.

3. OK, I am not as knowledgable on Summer Wine as some others here but, I don't link the quality of the episodes depended on if it had Seymour or Foggy. One of my recent observations in watching series 6-9 is that Seymour and Foggy were different, yet the same. Both had a pompous side and felt they were always right and superior to the other two. Both were socially awkward, but it was just one had military and money making dillusions and the other had education and invention dillusions. Reflecting on the era in between Blamire and Truly, I see that most episodes could fit either Seymour or Foggy.

Truly however, is a bit of a different character, and started out as a more straight forward, curmudgeon-type character. Perhaps over decades of Pompous and dillusional third men the writing and directing of the show suffered a bit, but things changed when a different type of character , Truly, was introduced.

4. Yes, I understand that Wilde and Owen were difficult at times, and I heard Sallis helped keep the peace, and that Abbot and Aldridge were very kind. However, all were great actors, and their real lifepersonalities and personal issues did not show on film.

I do completely agree that many American shows decline in quality over the years. I would say that is often more to do with the writers leaving than anything else. Though sometimes changes in the cast can also affect this such as in The Office or, legendarily, Scrappy Doo.

 

[Nicko12345]

Au contraire, mon brave, they regularly interrupted themselves or each other as they were reminded of something and after a while, if they remembered they would wander back to the story they had been recounting ten minutes earlier. That is what I call the crack - totally undirected and loose conversation which wanders all over the place and maybe eventually gets back on track.

Exactly. They interrupted themselves. They didn`t have a ladies tea party occurring onstage though or have a 50-something couple talking about the captain of the golf club.

I completely agree that having the main characters in Summer Wine sit around and talk nonsense was an integral part of the show.

 

[barmpot]

Exactly. They interrupted themselves. They didn`t have a ladies tea party occurring onstage though or have a 50-something couple talking about the captain of the golf club.

I completely agree that having the main characters in Summer Wine sit around and talk nonsense was an integral part of the show.

Exactly. Just as the ability for us to wander off topic is an integral part of this forum. Says he wondering why they ever thought nylon would be good for socks? As Blamire did. Mangled thoughts!

 

[dick]

Lets not forget the way Cleggy used to wander off topic sometimes. (I'll just go and stand over here shall I ??)

 

[Big Unc]

Much prompted by this recent contribution:

Wow, there has been a lot of different angles coming from this thread. And it all started with Three Men and a Mangle.

I felt constrained to go back and check how the thread was started in the first place because I had completely forgotten, if I ever in fact knew. So here it is:

I've just watched Three Men And A Mangle and have to say the comic writing of the bridge scene is flawless. Its so well written and acted out by all the cast, the look on "Policeman 2" 's face is just magic when he see's the roof and the end scene where Cooper is looking up to see if he can find something to explain it, then just throws his arms up is so funny every time.

I think its one of the best episodes in that series that and What's Nora Getting For Christmas are always worth watching. Not forgetting Crums with the introduction of Auntie Wainwright make it a great way to spend a sunny Sunday afternoon.

Doesn't time fly when you are enjoying yourself.

:whisper::whisper::whisper:

​

 

[Pearl]

Exactly. Just as the ability for us to wander off topic is an integral part of this forum. Says he wondering why they ever thought nylon would be good for socks? As Blamire did. Mangled thoughts!

Uwww I hate nylon and socks so nylon socks are just wrong twice! :unhappy:

 

[Pearl]

Much prompted by this recent contribution:



I felt constrained to go back and check how the thread was started in the first place because I had completely forgotten, if I ever in fact knew. So here it is:



Doesn't time fly when you are enjoying yourself.

:whisper::whisper::whisper:

​

You people keep talking about topics??? I have no idea you're all on about! ( No not the chocolate Dick )


Having said that! This is a discussion site and we're discussing things, one thing leads to another and before you know it Dicks in the corner I'm hunting for chocolate and Barmpot in contemplating his socks! :yawn: Just normal day at the office.

 

[Marina'sTwin]

You people keep talking about topics??? I have no idea you're all on about! ( No not the chocolate Dick )


Having said that! This is a discussion site and we're discussing things, one thing leads to another and before you know it Dicks in the corner I'm hunting for chocolate and Barmpot in contemplating his socks! :yawn: Just normal day at the office.

Speaking of the office, I just thought I'd drop by and tell y'all that I'm still alive! Lol I've just been working my butt off at the office! I've got one more day of getting up at 4am and then I'll start going in at 8! So I'll be getting up at 6 instead! Yeah that sounds crazy but when you get up at 4 every day sleeping until 6 is heaven! I just wanted to let y'all know that I haven't forgotten about y'all and I agree that this forum goes off topic a lot but that's what makes it fun!

 

[codfanglers]

Speaking of the office, I just thought I'd drop by and tell y'all that I'm still alive! Lol I've just been working my butt off at the office! I've got one more day of getting up at 4am and then I'll start going in at 8! So I'll be getting up at 6 instead! Yeah that sounds crazy but when you get up at 4 every day sleeping until 6 is heaven! I just wanted to let y'all know that I haven't forgotten about y'all and I agree that this forum goes off topic a lot but that's what makes it fun!

I love your "avatar picture." In the livelieness of these debates, it might be very appropriate.

 

[Marina'sTwin]

I love your "avatar picture." In the livelieness of these debates, it might be very appropriate.

Lol thank you! I just found it in the avatar list on here! Lol It does seem like men have a bit of a disadvantage here so you're right, it is pretty appropriate! Lol Of course I'm a very strong woman so I might be just a little bit biased!

 

[Sarkus]

On the question of the size of later casts, I think there is some exagerration going on here, at least for the "middle years" (i.e. Seymour and the 2nd Foggy period). The only character I felt was sometimes being forced into episodes was Eli, as he would show up for a short scene every episode for awhile. Beyond that, a number of the supporting characters might only show up for one or two scenes (the ladies coffee morning is in many cases the only time you see them, for example), so its not like the episodes were generally dominated by the secondary characters. There were also episodes where at least some of the secondary characters weren't shown at all.

I generally find the size of the later casts feels natural, and in some ways reflects the audiences interest in the bigger "world" the characters live in, which was not just limited to what the core trio were doing. In one of the books on the show I've read they refer to this idea as "Summerwineland," which reflects that although the show took place in a real location, the people making it realized it was not the real world that they were presenting in the episodes. These 70 and 80 year olds were doing things that were not likely, technology was slow to show up, etc.